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[chess]

I think that I might have given some people here some wrong impressions in the past. So, I'd just like to clear a few things up.
1. I am a Christian.
2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are fakes, invented by humans or by Satan to trap people and keep them away from God.
4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.
5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I'm going to keep praying for you. Even if you ask me not to.

So, there we go.

Comments

[originalauthor.livejournal.com]

In response to #4... In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.

What do you believe about people who have never heard of Christianity? Remote tribes, etc? I'm not attempting to be confrontational, just honestly curious.

[pling.livejournal.com]

In one of the descriptions of hell (a Catholic one, I think, but I can't remember) there's a special bit of hell reserved for those who didn't have the chance to convert. I think it's supposed to be nicer than most of the rest of the bits (not their fault after all).

[passage.livejournal.com]

This question gets asked a lot actually. I must have come across it at least 3 times in just a last couple of weeks.

So before I answer it (or rather, give my opinion on it, Michelle may have a different answer), I'm going to rant.

Why do people ask this question so much? Have any of them not heard about Jesus? Have you ever met anyone, just one, who'd not heard of Christianity?
Just once?
Is this question, infact, in any way, remotly relavent to ... anything?
Then why does everyone seem to want to ask it?!?!?

Right, now that I've ranted, onto the more useful bit:

During my answer I'm going to quote bits of the bible, I appeciate you may not believe what it says, but I think your question is about what Christian's think, and so I think the bible is useful in showing both that what I present is not just my wacky ravings (I hope) whilst at the same time giving some idea of why I (or hopefully we) believe it.

Have I lost you in brackets yet?

Good, then I'll begin.

"Abram[1] believed the Lord and he credited it to him as righteousness". Genisis 15v6 (Quoted in Romans 4v3, I mention this in case you're wondering if that had somehow passed away).

Now, from that passage (and the rest of the bible) I don't think there's any doubt that Abraham is headed for/is in (this depends on how you try and align time in this world and with God, personally I think the correct approach is: don't bother trying) heaven. But he didn't know Jesus (for the good reason that Jesus hadn't come to earth yet[2]).

However, Abraham knew God, he saw God in creation and he worshipped him, he had faith in God and in this passage it's clearly stated that that was enough for God.

Not that our faith can in some way make us clean, not that we can earn God's approval by ourselves, but that that faith opens up the way for redemption by Jesus sacrifice, without having to actually know Jesus.

One of the elders of my church said to me recently "I wouldn't say this in a sermon or something, because I think it could be too easily misunderstood, but I won't be surprised if in heaven I find people who on earth didn't know about Jesus, but saw God in creation, and worshipped him."[3]

So, what of this elusive bunch who have never heard of Jesus, who live before that time, or the babies who were aborted?

Well I think that God will judge them fairly and rightly, and that a simple honest faith in him, without any fnacy details or knowledge of the crucifiction will be adaquete to get them into heaven.

However, this is totally irrelavent for you. Because you do know about Christianity, and you have heard the gospel, and so has everyone you know. 'Simple faith'[4] means nothing in that context: either you've accepted Jesus or you've rejected him[5].

So, in concluson: God will judge them fairly, this is absolutly irrelavent for you.

If you made it this far then congratulations

Neil, who's wondering if there's a "most comments longer than the original post" award.

Numbered footnotes are expanded in the following comment, as I went over the character limit in this one.

[jaq.livejournal.com]

But I don't believe in 'Hell'...

[pling.livejournal.com]

But does Hell believe in you?

[dreema.livejournal.com]

I do...

They built a wall around it. They called the wall the M25 orbital car park.

[passage.livejournal.com]

Safety warning:
No matter how much you don't believe in the ground do *not* leap off this cliff.

It would hurt.

No, really.

Of course if you don't believe in the ground, you probably don't believe the safety notice either. Unfortnatly for you should you choose to leap, the physical laws of the universe are very keen on absolute truth.

<threatens anyone who tries to bring in relativity here with an essay of the equivalence of observations from inertial frames and an 'off topic' sticker>

Neil

[chess]

Like the rest of reality, Hell exists whether you believe in it or not.

Hell

[speccy67.livejournal.com]

"God didn't make Hell. We did, in cooperation. He hadn't even thunk it." the possesed individual said during exorcism.

Doesn't that just go against much of what we learned. That the angels, even those fallen, don't have a "will". Yet here, clear as day they appear to have it. Sure the demon could be telling a lie. But could you, or anyone here really see God creating a room for evil? God created beings with a free will. It is we, the fallen in sojourn here who have choosen those things against God, and thus caused evil.

In God's infinite love, he even still loves those who have fallen. Could Gods Mercy really be so abundant that those who reject him could still exist, could still be against a being so beautiful?
Two weeks ago, what I typed above frightened me when I read it in the diary book I have of an exorcists activities.

Why,
To imagine that the angels have free will. That possesion is permissive from God. The world was a really neat place till that moment.

What I had waxed and wayned on before, and then only partially beleived became real. Hell, a place that the serpent made for his children with his children. Apart from God's place for us.

[naath.livejournal.com]

Morningstar have mercy on your immortal soul.

If you intend to pray for me to an aspect of Deity that I find insultingly egocentric and masochistic. I shall pray for you to Lucifer. You have been warned.

Or we could just ignore each other...

I'm not going to hell... I'm going to be reincarnated. Probably as something not-very-nice because I'm not a particularly Good Person. Perhaps I should start being nicer.

Actually, that's one of the things I hate about Christianity... that an evil man who asks God for forgiveness will be forgiven, but a good man who just happened to pray to a different aspect of Deity will go to Hell. icky theory.

[passage.livejournal.com]

Good man?
Where?
Can I meet him?

Neil, who is trying very hard to suppress the urge to use similies invovling sheep going astray for fear of being blugeoned to death with a large hardback bible.

[passage.livejournal.com]

I must admit that I'm a little surprised, not by any of these, of course I knew this about you already.

And that's rather what surprises me: to whom did you think you had given that impression, and by what means?

Your posts in the past have been ... well not overtly Christian but frequently it has been obvious that God has been on your mind as you were writting[1].

And I'm impressed, you mentioned the trinity and yet managed to get a whole pile of comments not even mentioning it.

There could be a calling for pastoring there Michelle ...

Neil, who it appears is currently trying to break the limit for most comments by one person to a single post.

[1] I'd love to give a link as evidence but the one I was thinking of has no comments so I can't link to it (I don't know how to get the url fo something without comments or lj-cut, perhaps I should leave a comment on it just so I can link to it?

Anyhow, the latest of the posts (if there are more than one) by you on Thursday, April 18th, 2002

[naath.livejournal.com]

I have no argument with the Trinity... nether does anyone else it seems... Hell is better for arguing about.

[chess]

Elynne. Naath. Possibly the ppl on my friendslist that I don't really know that well yet. I just felt that I'd done a lot of listening to other people talking about their beliefs recently, and I was worried that I might have, by listening, given them the impression that I thought those beliefs were compatable with mine, or even true. Hence this post.

Wiccan Rede; "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt"

[ravensstar.livejournal.com]

Christianity is a man made religion. It did not evolve naturally over thousands of years as the Old Religion has. Whole countries were classified as Christian when in actuality it was only the rulers who had adopted the new religion, and often superficially at that. In order for mass conversion, bishops and other priests of the new religion built their churches on the sites of other's temples. Forcing a change.
In those early days, when Christianity was slowly growing in strenght, the Old religion- Wiccans and other pagans- were considered rivals. Naturally, the Church wanted to rid itself of this rival. The gods of an old religion became the devils of a new. The God of the Old Religion was a horned God, so apparently it was the Christian's devil. So therefore, pagans are devil worshipers. When, in fact, our horned God, is our God of the hunt, and our Goddess is of Fertility and rebirth. Two halves of divinity.
The Devil is a purely Christian invention, an error due to mistranslation. The original Old Testament Hebrew Ha-satan and the New Testament Greek diabolos simply mean "opponent" or "adversary".
Non-Christians became known as Pagans and Heathens, which Latin Pagani and Heathen means "people who dwell in the country or on the heath". And becuase most "Non-Christians" lived on the outskirts of the towns (the country) they became known as such, and the derogatory sense is quite incorrect.
But what about Satanism? The early church was extremely harsh on its people. So they led a rebellion, albeit a clandestine one. They found that their lives were not ettered by worshiping a God of Love, they decided to pray to its opposite, so Satanism came into being. It was a parody of Christianity, a mockery of it. People were showing their disdain for authorities, going against the establishment. Mother Church found out about this. Satanism was anti-Christian, Witchcraft was anti-Christian, ergo witchcraft and satanism were one and the same.
We Wiccans live by the Wiccan Rede (in subject box) whic means "Do what you will... but don't do anything that will harm another. It is as simple as that.
There ARE Principles of Wiccan Belief. 13 of them. #10 states "Our only animosity towards Christianity , or to any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "THE ONLY WAY" and have sought to DENY FREEDOM to others and to supress other ways of religious practice and beliefs.

So, when I see things like your petty little "holier than thou
"1. I am a Christian.
2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are fakes, invented by humans or by Satan to trap people and keep them away from God.
4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.
5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I'm going to keep praying for you. Even if you ask me not to." really gets to me.
We don't prance around saying You do not worship our God and Goddess, you are evil, you are going to hell. So what gives you the right to say that your beliefs are the only beliefs? That because people don't believe in your God they are going to hell? You can go right on wasting your breath and pray for us, but we do not need your help. We have survived your religions persecutions and have managed to live healthy, happy, morally wonderfull lives.


"We Wiccans give thanks to the Mighty Ones
For the richness and goodness of life.
As there must be rain with sun,
To make all things good,
So we must suffer pain with our joy,
To know all things.
Our love is ever with the Gods,
For though we know not their thoughts,
Yet we do know their hearts ~
That all is for good."

So mote it be
Love and Light
May the God and Goddess watch over you

Re: Wiccan Rede; "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt"

[jaq.livejournal.com]

Aren't all religions man-made? Perhaps we'd have a bit of a communication problem proving otherwise...

[elwe.livejournal.com]

Have you read C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce?

[chess]

No. Should I? What's it about?

[steaksammich.livejournal.com]

I don't know enough on the topic to debate it intelligently. I've always thought religion to be the most ridiculously silly thing so I never bothered learning much about it. But I figured I should say something about it, just for fun. 1, 2, and 5 I'm ok with. Even number 4 isn't so bad I suppose. But number three is one of the reasons why I believe religion to be so silly. What makes you think that you're right and the millions of Buddists and Hindus and other such people are wrong? Perhaps you're the one worshipping the false god?

I dunno, my mind has always been too logical and scientific to blindly put faith into something so far fetched that doesn't have an once of proof behind it. I never understood how people could do that...

But with all the wars religion has created and all dirty politics behind it, I'm quite glad I wasn't raised Christian. Religion is one of the more evil things in the world. Not to mention the people that run it...This is probably world news since the pope is involved now, but I'm not sure how big it is in England. But here in America, lately, there have been a very large number of people all over the place coming forward and saying how their priests and nuns used to molest them as children. It'd be a toss up betweeen if I'd rather be led by Hitler and his generals or the Pope and his priests.

I spose in your version of the world I'll be going to hell and if there was a god, I definately would be. I'm not really worried about it though.

[chess]

I do get sick of it when people condemn Christianity because of the abuses conducted in its name - especially as the abuses so blatently contradict the central tenets of the faith itself!

Surely if you're going to pick a religion to twist to your own ends, you'd choose the one that seemed most right, because then you'd be more convincing?

My mind is also logical and scientific. But I can see how it'd be hard to believe if you hadn't had the experiences that kinda move the proof up a notch for me. It'd be kinda illogical and stupid for me *not* to believe in a God, given the number of 'coincidences' I'd have to believe in instead. But although I haven't independantly investigated this, I'm told that the historical evidence for the Bible being pretty accurate is good - better than some of the other history we take for granted.

[elynne.livejournal.com]

I don't mind you praying for me... but my beliefs don't agree with yours, so. :) I still fully intend on dedicating myself to Thoth, once we get the ground rules worked out, and Kuan Yin seems to have taken a liking to me. Whatever you believe, I wish you the very best to live in grace and joy.

Curiosity

[passage.livejournal.com]

I hope you will forgive my curiosity causing me to ask this question, I don't mean to be confrontational or anything, I'm just intrested:

What does the word grace mean to you? How would you define it?

Neil

[rho]

Ok, my take on this:

I'm not a Christian(nor, for that matter, anything - my beliefs are my own and do not bear a name) so I don't believe what you say to be true. However, should anyone actually care about me sufficiently to take time worryingabout my future, or praying for me then I take this as a compliment.

Further, neither the beliefs nor the prayers do me, or anyone else, any harm so there is no reason for me to want them to stop.

The only problem is when people try to ram their beliefs down my throat, and militantly convert me. I don't want to be told about other people's beliefs constantly, and I expect anyone stating their beliefs to me to do me the courtesy of listening to mine should I wish to explain them but beyond that, I'm easy.

That is all.

[chess]

What you said in the second-to-last paragraph is kinda why I felt I needed to post this - I do spend a lot of time listening to other people's beliefs, because a two-way dialogue is generally much more productive than a rant. But I didn't want people to think that I was somehow agreeing with them through this - I wanted to make sure everyone was straight with what I believed.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

I don't think that because any one given person is #1, it means that they believe 2, 3 or 4.

I'm sure someone will want to argue with me, though. Keep in mind I said those were my thoughts - you can't actually base an argument on my thoughts, because they are indeed, my thoughts.

[chess]

I don't claim that everyone who calls themselves a Christian believes all of the below points. I just claim that the other points are what being a Christian means to me, and how I'd define 'being a Christian'.

[leisaie.livejournal.com]

I guess that as a perosn who studies both paganism and Buddhism, I'll just keep my mouth shut.
But if you'd like to have a theological discussion, when I'm in Hell I'll give you a ring up in Heaven, and we can talk. Maybe our viwepoints will have changed. Experience does that.
As for now, I'll just keep my heathen ways.

Comments Galore

[passage.livejournal.com]

My, what a lot of comments! I haven't seen this many since Sagima put up that set of jokes concerning relationships between the sexes.

So, I thought I'd add one more just to make the problem worse ;-)

"There are two things you're not allowed to discuss at dinner parties: religion and politics, and that's because they're the two most intresting things to discuss." - Julian Hardyman, Associate Pastor for Eden Baptist Church

Neil

Re: Comments Galore

[chess]

Ahh, so that's where I'm going wrong socially - because these two are the topics of conversation I bring up at every oppertunity...

Strong words, minced and all

[speccy67.livejournal.com]

Why do you beleive what you beleive?

As Paul says (Or was that John?). Be able to give an explanation.

Re: Strong words, minced and all

[chess]

There are two main reasons:

1. I've had visions. Lots of coincidences have happened to me that I would have a lot of trouble explaining away any other way, but that Christianity makes into perfect sense. So it'd be a little churlish for me not to believe in God, given He's shown me so much and done so much for me.
2. On the whole, it makes sense. I mean, there are bits you can pick in the Bible, given all the translations and stuff, but it makes a lot more sense than anything else I've come across.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

My, aren't we elitist and smug?

As for me, I'll keep asking the Goddess to open your mind.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Ever think to question the origin of that statement? It doesn't really fit in with the rest of what Jesus taught, now does it? Preaching acceptance and tolerance and charity and then suddenly this nonsense about being the one true way -- doesn't really fit, does it?

I know Christians who follow Jesus' example of tolerance and acceptance. You aren't one of them. Wake up and learn instead of blindly following. Or don't.