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[chess]

I think that I might have given some people here some wrong impressions in the past. So, I'd just like to clear a few things up.
1. I am a Christian.
2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are fakes, invented by humans or by Satan to trap people and keep them away from God.
4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.
5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I'm going to keep praying for you. Even if you ask me not to.

So, there we go.

Comments

Salvation through ignorance?

[passage.livejournal.com]

First of all I owe you an apology, for my rant, it was out of place.

The question is a good question, and a valid question (for the reasons you gave). I guess I reacted the way I did because I've heard it too often.

Or perhaps more likely because I don't have a good answer for it.

The problem is this: I am trying in my answer to balence two truths (you might want to call them beliefs instead, they are things I am convinced of at least):
- There is no Salvation except through Jesus's sacrifice [1]
- God is a just judge [2]

Now in a sense, being strictly mainline Christianity that's about all I can, with absolute certainty (in my own heart at least) say. The bible doesn't tell me how God will judge those who never had a chance to get to know him, through no fault of their own.

In a sense that's because I don't need to know: I'm not going to be asked to judge them.

However, academically, as you say, it's a question we'd like an answer to.

So, I have to admit that the rest is my thoughts and that other Christian's might feel differently on it. Before writting this I did talk to a couple of Christians to ask if they felt I was way of base (thanks for your advice guys), but what I'm about to say I can't prove from the bible, it's just my best guess.

When I was very young I asked this question and my parents gave me a simplfied answer:
"I think God will judge them according to whether they would have accepted Jesus had they known about him."

Now that is a simplification (well, it may be the entire truth, but I don't have good reason to suppose it is), but I think it captures the spirit of the idea.

I think these people are redeemed by Jesus' sacrifice even if they don't know or understand that. (This is the way I try and handle the apparent opposition between the two 'axioms'[3] as it were, that I've stated).

So to answer you:
Your praphrase it pretty much dead on, I'm going to tweak a couple of words: mostly pedantism.

Your basic position is that people in remote tribes may find God talking to them through nature, through His works, or through other signs and wonders, and even if your missionary never shows up, God will judge them according to their reception to that, am I paraphrasing properly?"

"If I'm paraphrasing properly (please let me know), then 1) does that contradict Chess's original assertion that "everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell"?"

Okay, yes. Now Michelle's statement must, from a pedantic viewpoint be false (Abraham turns up in a scene set in heaven in a story by Jesus[4], he can't be a Christian living 4,000 years before Christ).

But I must emphasise: this is an exception rather than a rule.
No, that's too strong: I suspect that this is an exception rather than a rule.

Point 2 of yours in that paragraph has I think been answered in another branch of this thread so I will only add one bit:
"do you believe they are safe?"

Safe? No. They have no assurance of salvation (Islam doesn't even offer this to it's followers). I trust that God will judge them justly, but I don't know where that will put them. I hope some of them will end up in heaven, but I don't *know*.

I hope I've not confused the issue too much,
Neil

[1] John 14v16b:
"No one comes to the Father except through me."
Also: Romans 3:22-30
[2] Deuteronomy 32v4:
He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.
Also: Psalm 45:6,Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 30:18, Luke 18:7-8
[3] Alright, so they're not really axioms .. postulates perhaps?
[4] Luke 16v22-23:
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."
There are several other such referances in Luke (see Luke 13).
It is possible that Jesus is using Abraham's presence as a sign of being with God (abraham being with God, as the jews would have understood it). I think this involves Abraham actually being there, if you're concerned this is just a metaphor say and I'll take a closer look at the passages involved.

Re: Salvation through ignorance?

[originalauthor.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. Thanks for the thoughts. I think your parents had a pretty wise answer to a difficult quandary. Surely God could judge how they *would have* reacted. But since in many cases we can't help being who we are, is that in itself fair?

Wish I had more time for this discussion. I'm at work now, and have schoolwork besides. :(