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I think that I might have given some people here some wrong impressions in the past. So, I'd just like to clear a few things up.
1. I am a Christian.
2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are fakes, invented by humans or by Satan to trap people and keep them away from God.
4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.
5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I'm going to keep praying for you. Even if you ask me not to.
So, there we go.
1. I am a Christian.
2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are fakes, invented by humans or by Satan to trap people and keep them away from God.
4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.
5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I'm going to keep praying for you. Even if you ask me not to.
So, there we go.
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no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 12:52 am (UTC)From:What do you believe about people who have never heard of Christianity? Remote tribes, etc? I'm not attempting to be confrontational, just honestly curious.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 12:57 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 12:58 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 01:01 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 01:03 am (UTC)From:Re:
Date: 2002-04-26 01:08 am (UTC)From:It is a good question...
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 01:10 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 01:14 am (UTC)From:They built a wall around it. They called the wall the M25 orbital car park.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 01:18 am (UTC)From:If you intend to pray for me to an aspect of Deity that I find insultingly egocentric and masochistic. I shall pray for you to Lucifer. You have been warned.
Or we could just ignore each other...
I'm not going to hell... I'm going to be reincarnated. Probably as something not-very-nice because I'm not a particularly Good Person. Perhaps I should start being nicer.
Actually, that's one of the things I hate about Christianity... that an evil man who asks God for forgiveness will be forgiven, but a good man who just happened to pray to a different aspect of Deity will go to Hell. icky theory.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 01:22 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 06:15 am (UTC)From:So before I answer it (or rather, give my opinion on it, Michelle may have a different answer), I'm going to rant.
Why do people ask this question so much? Have any of them not heard about Jesus? Have you ever met anyone, just one, who'd not heard of Christianity?
Just once?
Is this question, infact, in any way, remotly relavent to ... anything?
Then why does everyone seem to want to ask it?!?!?
Right, now that I've ranted, onto the more useful bit:
During my answer I'm going to quote bits of the bible, I appeciate you may not believe what it says, but I think your question is about what Christian's think, and so I think the bible is useful in showing both that what I present is not just my wacky ravings (I hope) whilst at the same time giving some idea of why I (or hopefully we) believe it.
Have I lost you in brackets yet?
Good, then I'll begin.
"Abram[1] believed the Lord and he credited it to him as righteousness". Genisis 15v6 (Quoted in Romans 4v3, I mention this in case you're wondering if that had somehow passed away).
Now, from that passage (and the rest of the bible) I don't think there's any doubt that Abraham is headed for/is in (this depends on how you try and align time in this world and with God, personally I think the correct approach is: don't bother trying) heaven. But he didn't know Jesus (for the good reason that Jesus hadn't come to earth yet[2]).
However, Abraham knew God, he saw God in creation and he worshipped him, he had faith in God and in this passage it's clearly stated that that was enough for God.
Not that our faith can in some way make us clean, not that we can earn God's approval by ourselves, but that that faith opens up the way for redemption by Jesus sacrifice, without having to actually know Jesus.
One of the elders of my church said to me recently "I wouldn't say this in a sermon or something, because I think it could be too easily misunderstood, but I won't be surprised if in heaven I find people who on earth didn't know about Jesus, but saw God in creation, and worshipped him."[3]
So, what of this elusive bunch who have never heard of Jesus, who live before that time, or the babies who were aborted?
Well I think that God will judge them fairly and rightly, and that a simple honest faith in him, without any fnacy details or knowledge of the crucifiction will be adaquete to get them into heaven.
However, this is totally irrelavent for you. Because you do know about Christianity, and you have heard the gospel, and so has everyone you know. 'Simple faith'[4] means nothing in that context: either you've accepted Jesus or you've rejected him[5].
So, in concluson: God will judge them fairly, this is absolutly irrelavent for you.
If you made it this far then congratulations
Neil, who's wondering if there's a "most comments longer than the original post" award.
Numbered footnotes are expanded in the following comment, as I went over the character limit in this one.
Footnotes for the preceeding post
Date: 2002-04-26 06:15 am (UTC)From:[2] Not an error in timing, the bible says:
"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly." Romans 5v6
[3] For completness it should be noted that there are many stories of such people, usually they have a vision from God to which they respond, and lo and behold a confused looking Christian missionary turns up on their remote island wondering why God has told them to come here. (To be scientifically sound I ought to note that we tend not to know the stories of those who find God, but someone doesn't turn up to explain the gospel, simply from their deffintion: that they are remote and have no contact with the rest of the world. Personally I don't see that as a problem).
[4] I should clarify what I mean by 'simple faith' in this context. I mean the person who has never heard of Jesus, the kind your question is about. I think that a 'simple faith' in other meanings, can be a wonderful, powerful, and very godly thing.
[5] Alright, there are agnostics too, and I suspect they count as rejecting him but I'm not sure, fortunatly several people will probably comment giving their opinions so maybe I can work out mine from there too ;-)
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 06:19 am (UTC)From:No matter how much you don't believe in the ground do *not* leap off this cliff.
It would hurt.
No, really.
Of course if you don't believe in the ground, you probably don't believe the safety notice either. Unfortnatly for you should you choose to leap, the physical laws of the universe are very keen on absolute truth.
<threatens anyone who tries to bring in relativity here with an essay of the equivalence of observations from inertial frames and an 'off topic' sticker>
Neil
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 06:23 am (UTC)From:Where?
Can I meet him?
Neil, who is trying very hard to suppress the urge to use similies invovling sheep going astray for fear of being blugeoned to death with a large hardback bible.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 06:29 am (UTC)From:And that's rather what surprises me: to whom did you think you had given that impression, and by what means?
Your posts in the past have been ... well not overtly Christian but frequently it has been obvious that God has been on your mind as you were writting[1].
And I'm impressed, you mentioned the trinity and yet managed to get a whole pile of comments not even mentioning it.
There could be a calling for pastoring there Michelle ...
Neil, who it appears is currently trying to break the limit for most comments by one person to a single post.
[1] I'd love to give a link as evidence but the one I was thinking of has no comments so I can't link to it (I don't know how to get the url fo something without comments or lj-cut, perhaps I should leave a comment on it just so I can link to it?
Anyhow, the latest of the posts (if there are more than one) by you on Thursday, April 18th, 2002
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 06:37 am (UTC)From:Your basic position is that people in remote tribes will find God talking to them through nature, through His works, or through other signs and wonders, and even if your missionary never shows up, God will judge them according to their reception to that, am I paraphrasing properly?
(and, incidentally, know I don't know anyone who hasn't heard of Christianity, except obviously there are many, I just happen to live in the US where they probably are very few).
If I'm paraphrasing properly (please let me know), then 1) does that contradict Chess's original assertion that "everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell"? and 2) if there are deeply religious people in Arab countries who because of surrounding cultures have never been taught Christianity, but who believe that Islam is God's way of speaking to them, and they are devout to Islam, do you believe they are safe?
Oh, and the question of why is this relevant. Some people think that a claim that everyone who doesn't follow a certain religion seems to many who don't follow that religion to be hopelessly naive of the fact that many have never heard of that religion, and we are searching for consistency and fairness in that religion, and how its followers justify both. That's all.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 06:52 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 06:54 am (UTC)From:anyways, there are many many good ppl in this world. Who go out of their way to help others. Not all of them are famous, not all of them are well known.
Yes, noone is entirely good, but there are many ppl who are more good than bad. Karma is a balance.
off topic
Date: 2002-04-26 07:01 am (UTC)From:Wiccan Rede; "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt"
Date: 2002-04-26 07:12 am (UTC)From:In those early days, when Christianity was slowly growing in strenght, the Old religion- Wiccans and other pagans- were considered rivals. Naturally, the Church wanted to rid itself of this rival. The gods of an old religion became the devils of a new. The God of the Old Religion was a horned God, so apparently it was the Christian's devil. So therefore, pagans are devil worshipers. When, in fact, our horned God, is our God of the hunt, and our Goddess is of Fertility and rebirth. Two halves of divinity.
The Devil is a purely Christian invention, an error due to mistranslation. The original Old Testament Hebrew Ha-satan and the New Testament Greek diabolos simply mean "opponent" or "adversary".
Non-Christians became known as Pagans and Heathens, which Latin Pagani and Heathen means "people who dwell in the country or on the heath". And becuase most "Non-Christians" lived on the outskirts of the towns (the country) they became known as such, and the derogatory sense is quite incorrect.
But what about Satanism? The early church was extremely harsh on its people. So they led a rebellion, albeit a clandestine one. They found that their lives were not ettered by worshiping a God of Love, they decided to pray to its opposite, so Satanism came into being. It was a parody of Christianity, a mockery of it. People were showing their disdain for authorities, going against the establishment. Mother Church found out about this. Satanism was anti-Christian, Witchcraft was anti-Christian, ergo witchcraft and satanism were one and the same.
We Wiccans live by the Wiccan Rede (in subject box) whic means "Do what you will... but don't do anything that will harm another. It is as simple as that.
There ARE Principles of Wiccan Belief. 13 of them. #10 states "Our only animosity towards Christianity , or to any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "THE ONLY WAY" and have sought to DENY FREEDOM to others and to supress other ways of religious practice and beliefs.
So, when I see things like your petty little "holier than thou
"1. I am a Christian.
2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are fakes, invented by humans or by Satan to trap people and keep them away from God.
4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.
5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I'm going to keep praying for you. Even if you ask me not to." really gets to me.
We don't prance around saying You do not worship our God and Goddess, you are evil, you are going to hell. So what gives you the right to say that your beliefs are the only beliefs? That because people don't believe in your God they are going to hell? You can go right on wasting your breath and pray for us, but we do not need your help. We have survived your religions persecutions and have managed to live healthy, happy, morally wonderfull lives.
"We Wiccans give thanks to the Mighty Ones
For the richness and goodness of life.
As there must be rain with sun,
To make all things good,
So we must suffer pain with our joy,
To know all things.
Our love is ever with the Gods,
For though we know not their thoughts,
Yet we do know their hearts ~
That all is for good."
So mote it be
Love and Light
May the God and Goddess watch over you
Re: Wiccan Rede; "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt"
Date: 2002-04-26 08:04 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 08:21 am (UTC)From:Re: off topic
Date: 2002-04-26 08:33 am (UTC)From:I think it's a metaphor.
Neil
"An' it harm none, do what thou wilt", provided what you wilt do is chosen very carefully
Date: 2002-04-26 08:56 am (UTC)From:"So what gives you the right to say that your beliefs are the only beliefs?"
I don't think I've ever met anyone who thought their belief was the only belief. The only right belief, sure[2], but the only belief?
Perhaps you mean "What gives you the right to believe that your belief is the truth".
But that's a silly question too, because if you didn't believe it wasn't the truth you wouldn't believe it, simply by deffintion.
Perhaps you instead mean "What gives you the right to express your belief" (as we know from above that holding a belief is equivalent to believing it's true[1]).
Freedom of speach I think. But I'm not a legal expert. I think there are several applicable freedoms in UN human rights convention (which not all countries subscribe to, but I think the one I'm in does, and even if it doesn't I think it has equivalents in it's own law).
But if you're in America and can manage to claim that by communicating such a belief I'm teaching you how to break copyright protection then you could set the FBI on my under the DMCA.
Neil
[1] Hopefully that's an unneccessary sentence.
[2] Pretty hard to be a Christian and not think that when you have a savious who declares "I am the way the truth and the life, no-one comes to the Father except by me". Yes, I know you don't think that's true, but I do.
no subject
Date: 2002-04-26 08:58 am (UTC)From:Except (in this case) perhaps "This is God, did you really expect to entirely understand him?"
To be fair I was debating the matter of Hell with a nihilist (sp?) on wednesday evening, so I guess there are a few debates on the subject of Hell too.
Neil