Announcements...

[chess]

I think that I might have given some people here some wrong impressions in the past. So, I'd just like to clear a few things up.
1. I am a Christian.
2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are fakes, invented by humans or by Satan to trap people and keep them away from God.
4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell.
5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I'm going to keep praying for you. Even if you ask me not to.

So, there we go.

Comments

[firinel.livejournal.com]

I don't think that because any one given person is #1, it means that they believe 2, 3 or 4.

I'm sure someone will want to argue with me, though. Keep in mind I said those were my thoughts - you can't actually base an argument on my thoughts, because they are indeed, my thoughts.

[chess]

I don't claim that everyone who calls themselves a Christian believes all of the below points. I just claim that the other points are what being a Christian means to me, and how I'd define 'being a Christian'.

Re:

[firinel.livejournal.com]

Right. Then there are a lot of people who consider themselves Christian, who you are judging to be Not Christian.

[passage.livejournal.com]

Good[1]. I think the bible clear states that there are, have been and will be people who think they are/claim to be Christians, but aren't.

Matthew 7v21-23:
"21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

A selection of bible verses which come within some distance of this topic (some are less relavent than others):
Matthew 7:15-17
Mark 13:6
2 Peter 2:1

I feel I ought to be able to find a lot more (partiucarly from Paul's letters), anyone know others?

Neil

[1] I should clarify: Good that there are people who think they are Christians but aren't?
Of course not.
Good that it should be Michelle's place, or my place to judge if someone is a Christian or not?
Of course it is not our place, but God's.
Instead good that the deffinition taken is stronger than some people would like it. (Of course any deffintion or requirement for being a Christian has to be backed up by the bible, making it arbitarily stronger would not only be foolish, but would be creating a new religion.)

[elwe.livejournal.com]

Quite true. Though I suppose being "orthodox," for what the term is worth, would probably imply believing #2. 3 and 4 certainly aren't very representative of modern Christianity - just off the top of my head the Roman Catholic and American Epsicopal Churches would reject them, usually.

They would?

[passage.livejournal.com]

You're sure?

On what grounds?

I know that the catholic church differs on a number of theological points to the potestant churches but I didn't think it was anything this fundamental. Hmm, I'm going to have to hunt down a Catholic creed now.

Okay, a brief hunt (I don't really know what the approriate authortative place for Catholic stuff is, anyone know?) gave this website:
http://www.cin.org/kc50-1.html
Which said this:
"There is but one God and one Mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus, himself man, who gave himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:5). In Christ and in Christ only do we have a certain refuge of hope--apart from Him there is none. He is our judge now and in our final accounting."

So that's firm agreement with Michelle's #4.

As for #2: they consider the Nicene creed the foundation principle of their faith, so that follows automatically.

I think that probably kills #3 as well, if you disagree and feel the point is important I could do some more hunting.

Unfortuantly I know bascially nothing about the American Epsicopal Church, what is it that they believe?

Neil

Re: They would?

[marnanel.livejournal.com]

It's the American branch of the Anglican church (the same denomination whose English branch is the Church of England and whose Welsh branch is the Church in Wales).

Re: They would?

[elwe.livejournal.com]

I am not fully familiar with the Roman Catholic position (the only good thing I could find on it is http://www.beliefnet.com/story/41/story_4173_1.html . And I am also quite sure the Polish-Australian semanticist and universalist Anna Wierzbicka considers herself and is considered a perfectly orthodox Roman Catholic).

Now, the American Episcopal Church is in agreement with Michelle's statement concerning the Trinity (they, too, accept the Nicene Creed). They would also agree that "There is but one God and one Mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus, himself man, who gave himself a ransom for all." But they differ crucially on the point of whether people can be saved through Christ without intellectual belief in Christ. To my knowledge, Episcopalians are free to hold what opinion they choose on this point, and a great many (probably a majority) believe it is possible. And the Episcopal Church's active interfaith dialogue certainly rules out #3.

This view is not at all unknown in Christianity. A long list of orthodox mystics and theolgians have even gone so ar as to proclaim or speculate that all will be saved (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Julian of Norwich, George MacDonald, Nicholas Berdayaev, and quite a few 20th C figures).

So, basically, in my opinion at least, the general standard of orthodoxy in Christianity (the Nicene creed) would allow one to disagree with #3 and #4 while not rejecting #1 and #2.

Re: They would?

[chess]

Oh... dear. That kinda says something about the state of the Christian church, IMO.

Re: They would?

[firinel.livejournal.com]

That makes me incredibly happy.
The verse that I referred to in Luke suggests that this in a completely biblical standpoint to have.

Re: They would?

[passage.livejournal.com]

Woah ... hopefully I'm misunderstanding you here ... you think everyone's going to be saved?

Neil

Re: They would?

[firinel.livejournal.com]

No,
I think its up to God to decide who gets saved - that's Her job, not yours.
That's clearly stated in the Bible. That means you cannot judge people, even if they aren't Christian.
So, you've no place at all whatsoever, as neither does any Christian, to say that someone who is not Christian, is going to hell.

And as I've said - there's a perfectly valid biblical reason to believe that non-christians can, in fact, be let into heaven.

Re: They would?

[passage.livejournal.com]

Slightly off topic question, but still I think helpful:

Do you think I am allowed to be confident of my own salvation?

Neil

Re: They would?

[firinel.livejournal.com]

That's up to you.

Really?

[passage.livejournal.com]

I have to say I'm surprised. (well, okay, there are probably words I might quibble over before I stated that I believed them, or considered them to follow automatically from being a Christian, for example, I would change the 'going' in:
"4. In addition, I believe that everyone who isn't a Christian is going to Hell."
to: 'headed'

But anyhow, how would you define Christian?

May I ask a more personal question? (okay, so I'm going to put down the personal question here because I don't know your answer so umm .. intrepret the question as a sort of "No pressure to answer" thing).

Do you believe these things, or some similar rewording?

Neil

yes, really. Here you are.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

Took me awhile to write this up. You should be impressed, I'm loathed to put my spiritual beliefs this finely into words. I think sometimes writing things down makes it too hard and fast, and I'm constantly open to growing in that way. I've done it under the same construct that Chess used.

1. I am a Christian by my own definition. That means that I have a personal relationship with God, and Jesus, and come to understand what it means for me to be Christian, and try to make an effort to be a perfect example of that. I will almost always fall short of that, nonetheless God accepts that because She knew of it before I was born, and made preperations for it by sending Jesus to us. This also means that other then some very core beliefs which Christians have in common, I do not believe it is Right to force my definition of what it is for me to be Christian, because other people are not me and therefore will not have the same dialogue with Her as I do.

2. This means that I believe in one God, who expresses Himself as a Trinity of people - God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, to some people, as that is the most relevent form to be represented in for them. I believe that there is biblical refferences to God as a mother (Psalm 131:1-2, http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~scharme/Bible1.htm has a whole page of refferences, actually) and because we were all created in God's image (Gen 1:26-27) including women, I believe that in Truth God has no sex, and yet every sex. God is both female and male, and yet neither. God is not human and not able to be put into those constraints, God is pure Love, closest to human's souls, and nothing like our flesh which is bound up in gender. Humans have limited perception and find it easier to personify God, though God is no more capable of being personified then The Wind or Trees are. Whatever aspect that you are most comfortable placing on God, be that of a beardy grey old man, or whatever you think of Jesus as physically resemlbing, or a tongue of flame above our head, that is part of your dialogue with God, and may or may not be comparable to my dialogue with God.

3. This also means that I believe all other gods/godesses/deities-of-any-description are different aspects of God which have been manifested to thpse particular people. I believe it is sinful to ever assume that you have The Whole Turth clear to you. The Whole Truth is only ever clear to God. It is true that I think that people who have come to know Jesus have a much easier way of knowing The Whole Truth, a shortcut if you will, provided to us by God, but Christians will still always fall short, and therefore they are incapable of grokking The whole Truth. I'm not sure how to describe this more. Thomas and I recently had a conversation about this, and lifesavers.
He said: if you believe that eating green lifesavers is what gets you to heaven, and it turns out you do...
it doesn't mean you _did_ get to heaven by eating green lifesavers.
just that God had mercy on you, and accepted Jesus in your place as he w
that you do get to heaven.
it's just that God had mercy on you and accepted Jesus in your place, just as he would for a Christian.
me: don't you think that God will do that with ppl that aren't christian?
him: If they haven't... hm. I think it's possible/likely, given what I know of God. I don't say yes because I don't know anywhere he's even mentioned it.
oo, point.
I was thinking maybe Neil would think you meant that eating green lifesavers would be the way you DID get to heaven, rather than (almost) an irrelevancy in the
big scheme of things.
(that's a thought, though. so much church stuff is an irrelevancy in the big scheme of things.)
(My bibilical backing on this can, in part, be found in Luke 23:39-43 and John 1-- verse 9)

Re: yes, really. Here you are.

[passage.livejournal.com]

As you can see this has taken me a long time to reply to. It's something I've given a lot of thought and I'm still only going to approach one of your points (for the record: some of your points I do agree with, what you said about God being above gender: I agree, absolutly. However, It shouldn't be taken that just because I don't challenge a point doesn't mean I concur with it).

The passage in Luke, I'll quote it for those of you who don't know the entire bible off by heart (that'd be me then ...):

'"39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[6] "
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."'

Was this man a non-Christian?
Was he saved by faith in a different God?
A different religion?

It's quite clear from v43 that he was saved, but let's look at what leads up to that:

He challenges the insults hurled at Jesus.
He shows that he fears (and respects) God (and I think we get a strong hint from this that he recognises Jesus as God, at the very least he sees that Jesus is of God (cf v42)).
He realises that he's guilty: sinful and fallen and can't make it on his own.
He realises that Jesus is without sin, and that he is going on to be in glory (v42)
He calls on Jesus, placing his faith in Jesus for Salvation.

That's Christianity folks!

It's not an intellectual faith that this guy has, it's not a mature faith, and it's not an old faith: but it's faith.

He's cried out to Jesus for salvation and through Jesus he gets it!

The things I get from this story are:
God just wants a simple trust: intellect has nothing to do with salvation[1]
If you're on your last breath it's not too late to turn to God: he's still waiting, still wants to have you.[2]

On the John 1v9 ("The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.") section I can't quite see where you're comming from. Especially in juxtaposition with John 1v7("7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.")

Sorry that took so long to come,
Neil

[1] Don't misunderstand me to be saying that we shouldn't be using our intellect in our Faith, we should: because Christian life doesn't consist just of being saved and hanging around looking bored till the next life.

[2] One of my friends asked if you could become a Christian in the next life. I said I wasn't sure, but I wouldn't bank on it because there's no support for such a notion in the bible.

Anyone think there's stuff directly against such a notion?

yes, really. Here you are. (continued)

[firinel.livejournal.com]

4. Obviously what I believe for #3 reflects on if I believe that people who "are not Christian" "go to hell" or not. Again, I'd state Luke 23:39-43 as a very clear case of a non-Christian getting into heaven. And its very plain and clear that this non-christian did get into heaven because Jesus proclaimed it. I also happen to think its sinful to judge another person's dialogue with God and put value or worth on it. Discussing and keeping an open dialogue among people who believe in God about spiritual beliefs is important for indivigual growth, but placing value on it for someone is destructive to your self.

5. Understandably, I would really rather all you people didn't go to Hell. Hence, I'm praying for you. And I would really rather I not go to hell, as well. Hence, I am praying for myself. I praise God for you as well as pray for you, for you being here and giving me an oppurtunity to grow in God, learn and discuss. My prayers for you should not be seen a my condemnation of you, but of my love for you.


also:
I think the bible has ended up flawed beyond belief, due to bastardized translations by people who could benefit from Christianity backing up their own agenda, and I use it how I can, and expect God to help me understand how its relevent to me. I don't believe that God would allow me to understand the bible in a way which is wrong, if I go to Him and pray about it with a heart that's truely open and not just looking for something which supports my agenda/wishes.
btw,
me thinking that doesn't mean I think how I translate the bible is correct. because I think its very difficult to pray and ask god something without your own agenda/wishes tainting what you _think_ the answer is.


there we are. that should be an adaquate start.