(no subject)

[chess]

First, a practical thing: does anyone know much about chiropody in Cambridge? I appear to have ingrowing toenails which keep being ingrowing again after I attack them viciously with toenail-cutting implements, and I'd like to find someone competent to work out what's gone wrong, but I don't really know how to go about this without it costing lots of money.

Second, http://www.politicalsurvey2005.com/ is a very good website, and reminds me why I am distinctly puzzled how otherwise perfectly nice people can vote Tory, given their vast preference for the 'hanging/flogging' and 'free market' end of the scale. The free market is not very nice (it promotes inequality which makes people resentful, it means some people starve whilst others live in luxury, it is *not very nice*) and punishing criminals rather than trying to rehabilitate them is also not very nice. I probably have more cogent arguements why each is a bad idea, but fundamentally I object to them because they are Not Very Nice.

Thirdly, it's springtime and sunny, but everything still feels and tastes like dust and ashes to me. I just walked out of church this morning and went home because I felt I was harming the important things that were going on there (lots of prayer for the summer mission and some people going out to do primary healthcare stuff in rural India) just by being there. I'm not really sure what's wrong; I just have that big cloak of cobwebs back.

Comments

Re: Punishment has it's place, so does the free market economy

[tienelle.livejournal.com]

... demonstrating that justice isn't justice until we bring retribution into the matter.

How does he do this? The best explanation I've heard to date went along the lines of "If you've been hurt, you want to hurt back. Obviously this is how it should be." Now, admittedly this was in the chronological bible course, and he hadn't got to the New Testament yet, but I still feel it's Just Plain Wrong.

Re: Punishment has it's place, so does the free market economy

[passage.livejournal.com]

Rather than attempt and mangle it I'll wait and check back in my room where I think I have Josh's copy of the Problem of Pain.

The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[passage.livejournal.com]

On a sterner level the same idea appears as "retributive punishment", or "giving a man what he deserves". Some enlightened people would like to banish all conceptions of retribution or desert from their theory of punishment and place its value wholly in the deterrence of others or the reform of the criminal himself. They do not see that by so doing they render all punishment unjust. What can be more immoral than to inflict suffering on me for the sake of deterring others if I do not deserve it? Wand if I do deserve it, you are admitting the claims of "retribution". And what can be more outrageous than to carch me and submit me to a disagreeable process of moral improvement without my consent, unless (once more) I deserve it?

(Italics his)

These are the few lines that demolished the issue for me, they are part of a larger argument in which Lewis claims that while revenge is wrong (see the sermon on the mount), it does have down in its roots a right idea wrongly applied, that the evil man should have the truth revealed to him, that his evil should be to him as it is to everyone else.

Here we come to a complex debate: there are things which I state must do which an individual must not do. It would be wrong for the state not to lock up murderers, but if I were to comit a murder you are not to chain me to your radiator and keep me there for 40 years, you call the police.

And as usual this comment has got long enough, so I'll stop.

The Problem of Pain is presently languishing in my room and would be happy to be lent out to you, it is unsurprisingly largely about pain and suffering and how to make intellectual sense of such things in a world created by a good God, but you it has a certain amount on punishement, and it's not a very long book, you'd be welcome to borrow it if you like.

Neil

Re: The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[tienelle.livejournal.com]

This assumes that society is just. I feel that society is expedient, but not necessarily just. It is certainly expedient to punish criminals, to discourage such behaviour.

By comparison, Jesus urges us (Matthew 5) not to take any revenge on wrong-doers. I, therefore, do not feel that justice need involve retribution.

Re: The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[passage.livejournal.com]

If society had no concerns about justice, only concerns about expediency it would take someone at random, have a press campaign which left everyone convinced that they'd comitted crime X we don't approve of, and they brutually and publically torture them to a long, slow and above all excruciatingly painful death. Whether they were guilty or not is irrelavent, it is relavent only that the generally public believe them to be guilty. Finding an actual guilty person would be more effort, therefore not expedient. The death should be as painful as possible, thereby increasing the deterrent effect.

A shocking idea? You're objecting. You're saying "But that's not ... just". Exactly.

An expedient society is a terrible thing, society at its best is just, the idea comes out a lot in the Torah, I suggest reading Deuteronomy.

On the matter of Matthew 5, the Pharisees had taken to using Old Testament passages which said that a court, on finding someone guilty, must administer a proportional sentence, and having dragged them out of context, claimed they permitted personal revenge. (Notice he uses the formula "You have heard it said" which he reserves for sayings of the time, not "It is written" which is his formula for quoting the Old Testament.)

You've confused "It is not right for me to take revenge" with "it is not right that punishement be administered by due authority", the Bible upholds the first, but starkly contradicts the second. For example Paul in Romans says

"For he [rulers of the state] is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." - Romans 13:3-4

An a frequent theme in David's story, particularly when Saul is hunting him, (and when Absalom is trying to overthrow him) is the idea that it's not right for David to kill Saul, but it is right that God kill Saul.

Paul expands on the idea rooted in Deuteronomy 'Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," [ Deut. 32:35] says the Lord.' - Romans 12:19

Re: The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[tienelle.livejournal.com]

In an argument-free vein, I would rather like to borrow that book, if I may. I keep hearing about it.

Re: The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[passage.livejournal.com]

Can I leave the book in your p'hole in Churchhill college?

Re: The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[tienelle.livejournal.com]

Yes, please do. Thank you.

Re: The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[passage.livejournal.com]

Gah, keep forgetting book. Right, I'll put in your pigeonhole tomorrow. Will remember this time. Sorry.

Re: The Problem of Pain, C.S.Lewis, Page 75

[tienelle.livejournal.com]

Have received it. Will read it.