Racism

[chess]

Yesterday I discovered I had turned into a racist. I was looking at the pictures of the CUSU candidates, and one of them looked vaguely Indian (subcontinental? because I can't tell Indians from Pakistanis by sight, and have about the same prejudices for both, although I think I've had more contact with the former), and I immediately thought 'loud, untrustworthy, sells himself well and networks aggressively, got lots of contacts of the same race that he uses shamelessly to get ahead of more polite people'.

The problem is, I was probably right. About 50% of people of that extraction seem to fit that stereotype; the others fit a different one - quietish, work insanely hard, generally much smaller in stature than the first 50% and much less likely to have facial hair.

I've tried quite hard not to be racist in the past, but, dammit, people *do* tend to have racial characteristics. I can't describe the ones I have in my mind for 'black' and 'oriental' quite as closely, and I think I've met more exceptions in those groups, but I know they're there, subsconsciously affecting how I react to people. I tend to characterise oriental people as more manipulative than usual, more likely to layer on the social lies until you can't tell who they really are, and black people as more likely to be violent and in your face, or overly defensive (although Yorkshiremen come to mind for the second one - I even have regional prejudices, and *they're often right too*.)

I'm not really sure what to do about this discovery. I know that having any reactions based on someone's race is meant to be bad, but I'm not sure I can avoid making correlations when they seem to fit so often.

Comments

[angelofthenorth.livejournal.com]

There's also the issue of self-fulfilling prophecies...

[sath.livejournal.com]

I've quit feeling guilty for being 'racist'. Because I do exactly what you do.. I recognise that there are traits that they usually share. By all means they can speak to me and try to change my thoughts.. I do have friends who are asian and black.. and I like them. But my instincts are there to keep me safe, and the racism is part of that. *shrugs*

[ilanin.livejournal.com]

Obviously, the reason that these stereotypes exist in the first place is that there are a lot of people who fit their criteria.

It's not entirely that different to the very definite stereotypes that most of the Tripos subjects have, and those are relatively accurate too.

There's nothing wrong with subconsciously having the opinions based on stereotypes, provided you don't let them colour your conscious judgement or change your actions based on them. In this case, for example, voting for someone else because he's (probably Indian), would be Bad(TM).

I don't think I actually have any racial stereotypes, although I have a general nationalistic one with regard to Americans. It is somewhat prevalent on the first people you meet from each nation fitting the stereotype, I think...(I also have a stereotype for Germans now, although it isn't the prevailing one in Britain...)

[redshira.livejournal.com]

Interesting. How bout Jewish? Am genuinely interested and promise not to flame/unfriend/bitch about you regardless of response.

[chess]

Because all of the Jews I know come from distinct and completely random backgrounds, I don't have any racial stereotypes for Jews.

[atreic.livejournal.com]

Don't know if you've been reading my LJ, but I was wondering if I was racist / sexist earlier today, and this comment made a lot of sense to me

[pepronei.livejournal.com]

Wow, thanks.

- Moni the (half) Indian

[chess]

Yes, but you strike me as the second type - quiet and consciencious. Which isn't a bad thing.

[ahsu.livejournal.com]

If you can say that the stereotype fits only half the people you're applying it to, it's definitely racist -- you're inaccurately linking characteristics like color and ethnic origin to personality characteristics. It's not a helpful stereotype if it has a fifty percent chance of being wrong. You might want to consider why the negative stereotype, rather than the positive, came to mind first.

Keep in mind that stereotypes act as a filter to your observations. Once you have a stereotype of a certain group, you're likely to notice any time a member of the group fits the stereotype, but dismiss anyone who doesn't as an exception. You probably won't do an unbiased statistical analysis of the people of that racial group.

For instance, I happen to dislike SUVs -- I think they're oversized, arrogant vehicles. As a result, I notice every single time that an SUV is badly driven or parked. I notice every time an SUV driver screws up. I *don't* notice the SUVs that are accurately parked and carefully driven. I have to keep in mind that I'm seeing what I expect, not what is actually true.

I'll pick out an example from your post. got lots of contacts of the same race that he uses shamelessly to get ahead of more polite people Frankly, this is quite common for white men. It's just that it's not part of the stereotype of white men. But it's definitely there -- in the US we refer to it as the "Old Boy Network." So the flip side of stereotypes is that they may magnify your perception of a trait in one group and simultaneously diminish your perception of that trait in another group, leaving you with a bias even though, statistically, the trait may occur equally in both groups.

[chess]

Mostly the negative one came to mind first becaues he looked similar to the guy who I'd had to work with for the last term or so in the Group Project who vastly reinforced the stereotype at me... also, the positive stereotype struck me as unlikely in a person standing for CUSU President, because it's not something quiet, hardworking types tend to do.

[passage.livejournal.com]

I was going to say "Does this have more to do with standing for a CUSU post than colour?".

Incidently in my first year the CUSU president was a chap called Pav ... something, who was of some kind of Eastern background. He was contenious, sensible, reserved. And sadly largely ignored. No wait, that applies to all CUSU presidents.

[king-of-wrong.livejournal.com]

If you can say that the stereotype fits only half the people you're applying it to, it's definitely racist

I disagree. It's certainly a problem if acted upon, but denying observations is a form of moral relativism that really sticks in my craw.

The definition (Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary) of racism is "the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races" (emphasis mine). Making observations is not, nor can it ever be, racist. Interpreting those observations can be, if the interpretations are not rigorous, and acting upon generalisations of them almost certainly is.

I would argue that stereotyping is completely unavoidable and a by-product of the (lossy) compression that the brain uses, and hence there's no point in feeling guilty about it. At the very least, there's the issue of conditional probability - if I meet a man in the street, I'm pretty certain he can't just flap his arms and fly and, if he's black, the odds of him having the name Winston are several orders of magnitude better than him having the name Tawnee. The probabilities are rather different for a goose and a blonde woman, naturally, but the point is that, in a given situation, some things are a hell of a lot more likely than others.

That doesn't mean one shouldn't strive to avoid making judgements without solid evidence to back them up, but that's just simple rationality (which, admittedly, is in rather short supply).

[passage.livejournal.com]

To paraphase (in a deeply reductionist manner): Bad Michelle for prejudices. Here, let me give you a prejudice against men to prove how bad and wrong you are.

[naath.livejournal.com]

Maybe 50% of Indians are jerks. Infact 99% of Indians are probably jerks. But only because *99% OF PEOPLE* are jerks. If 50% of Indians who you have met are like that, well then, 50% are not. So it's a useless steryotype - particularly when deciding if you like this ONE person - who may or may not be any of those things, I don't know, I've not met the guy.

Me, I though 'I'll vote for the *girl*' then I read her manifesto and decided it sucks, so I shan't. I think that (probably) Indian guy has a position which I more closely agree with.

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I remember an episode of will and grace like that -- there was a woman and a jew running for $position, and both picked up on a different one, and kept havign campaign parties in their house at the same time, and slowly realised that both in fact were racist jerks (or something, I forget what, exactly).

They'd just agreed not to vote when one looked in a paper and:

"There's a black guy running!"
"Why didn't you say before? We've got to get down there!"

[atreic.livejournal.com]

Actually, the not-indian boy makes more sense, if you read the on-line hustlings

[cartesiandaemon.livejournal.com]

I think the racism might be in how willing you are to change your opinions or make exceptions.

For instance, the genetic differences between 'races' seem small or non-existant, so 'chinese are good at maths' *sounds* racist. But it might not be if it's said by someone who knows it to be true, or someone who realises that it's true just because most chinese people live in china, and in a lot of china a culture of acheivement is more prevalent than here. (disclaimer: hypothetical example)

[king-of-wrong.livejournal.com]

overly defensive (although Yorkshiremen come to mind for the second one - I even have regional prejudices, and *they're often right too*.)

Oi! I'm a Yorkshireman!
Oh, right... heh... good point... <wanders off quietly>

[ghoti.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I don;'t remember an Indian or Pakistani who fits your description. Either description, actually.

On the other hand, I may have done, and just not noticed that tyhey weren't white.

[wednesdayschild.livejournal.com]

I think you are being racist, and I think this is a bad thing.

How many black people do you know relative to the number of white people you know (or even in total -- barring livejournal, I've known a grand total of TWO black people in my entire life, one from primary school and one in the sixth form)? How many asian people do you know? How many 'oriental' people do you know?

I also think you're mistaking racial characteristics for social characteristics. Is it true that the two Chinese girls in my year applied to do mathematics and engineering at university? Yes. Is it true that ALL the asian girls applied to do medicine or something related to medicine (Prinith, Reena and Sheena, Rakhi, Arti...)? Yes. Does that mean that they are somehow genetically predisposed to study these subjects? Emphatically, no. It is social conditioning.

I think that you are taking a very small subset of people and using your experiences with them to colour how you view a whole race. If you're looking out for stereotypes, it's very easy to find them.

I don't believe that people, to any meaningful extent, have racial characteristics. They may have social characteristics based on their upbringing, yes. We all do. As a middle class girl with politically liberal but highly religious parents who are well-educated professionals with strong family ties then I am going to be affected by this. It says nothing about ANYTHING other than my upbringing.

I know white people who are loud and obnoxious and who network furiously (old boys networks spring to mind rapidly). I know white people who are quiet and deferrent and hard-working. I know white people who are incredibly manipulative to the extent that you realise you don't know them at all. I know white people who are violent and 'in your face'. It's got nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the individual person and how they were brought up, culturally.

[atreic.livejournal.com]

But does cultural upbringing have something to do with nationality? Of course it does. People in the UK are on average bought up very differently to people in indian. So you end up with, on average, very different people. Not "lesser" people, but different, in interesting ways. You can't say "it's wrong to say all foos are violent, because it's not a genetic thing, its the way they're bought up" when it's their mummy and daddy foos doing the bringing up. It's still a "race" issue, even if it isn't a "genetics" one. Isn't it?